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Traveller-digest           Tuesday, 23 July 1996       Volume 1996 : Number 282

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: The G Thing
         2. re: jump drives
         3. comments and a scenario (was Re: Urban legends)
         4. Re: Fighters and acceleration
         5. Re: Fighters and acceleration
         6. re: jump drives
         7. Re: Psionic auto-mindprobe? (Td V96#280)
         8. Re: Tacoma Bridge
         9. Re: Surface Area and FF&S
        10. Re: comments and a scenario (was Re: Urban legends)
        11. Re: Psionic auto-mindprobe?
        12. Re: Tacoma Bridge
        13. Re: Fighters, J-drives

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Liam_McCauley@qsp.co.uk (Liam McCauley)
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 14:08:23 +0200
Subject: Re: The G Thing

     Thanks for the data, Les.
     
     Your comments about deck-plans were also interresting.  Back in the 
     early eighties, I was looking for an SF RPG and my local games shop 
     recommended Star Frontiers over Traveller (hey, I was young and naive 
     - I believed him).  All the deck plans for that game were done with 
     the decks perpendicular to the thrust line, which was a nice realistic 
     touch, but I still preferred the "look" of the Traveller deck plans I 
     had seen.
     
     One idea I had (although I'm sure it's been thought of before, and I 
     just can't remember where from) is to have the crew section, or the 
     cockpit of a fighter, be able to rotate in all planes (like the belly 
     turret of a B17, or the VR setup in The Lawnmower Man), allowing the 
     G-forces felt to always be towards the floor.  This would have the 
     advantage that acceleration couches would always be supporting you in 
     the best way, and avoid the nasty effects of negative-G.  It would 
     hopefully also remove the disorientating effects of evasive 
     manouevring.
     
     Cheers,
     Liam
     
     -- 
     Liam_McCauley@QSP.co.uk

------------------------------

From: Glenn Crawford <marz@hotstar.net>
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 08:23:37 +0000
Subject: re: jump drives

I always imagined that even looking out of the ship during jump would 
be a little rough on the old sanity, and ships block out the view as a 
matter of course (a la Larry Niven's known space hyperspace blindspot) 
and that if looking at it (jumpspace) is bad, imagine being in the 
midst of it and decelerating from thousands of times lightspeed to 
normal space with previous vector

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 03:07:07 PST
Subject: comments and a scenario (was Re: Urban legends)

In mail you write:

> Built in a cnoverted nunnery, the so-called New Building (imaginative,
> what) is located between a pair of cemeteries and over buried chemical
> waste.  When I first heard about this, I figured it for a legend.  Being of
> an occasionally journalistic bent however, I did a little digging.  The
> school's Director of Facilities confirmed that it was true but asked me not
> to mention anything, as every couple of years the story resurfaces and
> makes the administration miserable.

Hey, that's nothing. Ever hear the *real* story behind "Love Canal"
(the infamous toxic waste site)?

The companies that disposed of waste there took a *lot* of precautions.
They bought an old canal (and the surrounding right of way). They
repaired and reinforced the reinforced concrete lining. After they
dumped in the waste, they poured a reinforced concrete lid. Then they
dumped lots of dirt on top.

How'd the stuff get loose? The city or county engineer *ignored* the
warnings on the maps and condemned the property so they could use it as
a right of way to run a major *sewer line* through. Naturally they
ripped the hell out of the casing to run the pipes through. 

But guess who got blamed for the leakage? Not the city...

This ranks right up there with the idiots in Utah who *over the
objections of the company* rezoned the land across the street from them
and put in a grade school. Why did the company object? Because they are
one of the country's largest manufacturers of *explosives*!

To get back to Traveller though, here's a neat scenario:

The players are trying to survey a planet that got depopulated during
the Long Night. They find a map hidden in the ruins of a government
office (say hidden behind a false panel in a file cabinet). It's in bad
shape, but they can still read it. It's a map of one of the more remote
areas of the planet, a definite wilderness area. But there are some
cryptic markings on it, indicating that *somethhing* is there, but the
markings don't say what it is. But it's ovbvious, both from the way the
map was hidden, and the fact that the notes are *so* cryptic, that
whatever it is, it was supposed to be *very* secret.

If they check out the area, they will find traces that indicate that
someone did some *major* construction here, then went to a lot of
trouble to make it look "normal" again.

Depending on what sort of sensors they have, they'll get various
indications. There are neutrino readings from some areas for instance.
And using "sounding charges" like geologists use will reveal that there
is some sort of *large* complex buried there. It appears to be built to
withstand a major war, and the areas where the tunnels led to the
surface seem to have been sealed *very* thouroghly.

I'll give you pretty good odds that your average player comes up with
one of the following explanations:

1. Planetary defence center
2. Archives
3. treasure repository
4. the mother of all fallout shelters, with important people in cold
   sleep until "after the war"
5. Doomsday weapon installation.
6. Ancient installation that the goverment hid from the people (shades
   of "Area 51" :-)

Or many other variations on these themes.

But having read my comments about Love Canal, I bet you've figured it
out already. It's where the goverment buried all the really toxic
waste. The neutrinos are from the decay of nuclear waste. It's secret
because they didn't want the environmentalists after them.

I expect that typical players will either contaminate the hell out of
themselves, or manage to set set off some of the explosive/flammable
stuff leaking out of corroding drums.  :-)

In case you haven't guessed, I am fond of setting up situations where
the players get into trouble because of theor pre-conceived notions.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 01:57:56 PST
Subject: Re: Fighters and acceleration

In mail you write:

> On Mon, 22 Jul 1996, Glenn Crawford wrote:
>
>  Rember, with modern fighters your talking about a few SECONDS at _most_
> at even 9gs.. With traveler ships, you must rember that each "it's just
> 3gs over" is a _half hour_ of being 3 gees over. Your heart would be gone
> by then.

Your heart or my heart might. But check out some of the tests they did
on the early astronauts as part of the screening process. Like extended
runs in the centrifuge, seeing who could handle how many gees for how
long. 

And for what it's worth, the acceleration on things like the Gemini and
Apoolo missions *started* at several gees and *increased* as the fuel
burned off. Burnout accelerations were routinely over 10 gees.

Part of the difference between what astronauts can handle and what
fighter pilots can handle is due to the *direction* of the acceleration.

Even a pretty out of shape person can handle 2 gees for a *long* time
as long as they are "lying down". Even 3 gees for 10 minutes or so is
considered to be within the reach of "ordinary" people. That's one of
the design goals for craft intended for "routinely" carrying people to
orbit. If you can keep the peak acceleration under 3 gees, then even
your grandmother can ride it...

Please note that many carnival rides *routinely* exceed 3 gees!
Anything that has you upside down, but feeling at least one gee "up" is
subjecting you to 3 gees at the bottom of the spin. Based on my last
experience with the one where you stand in "stalls" around the rim of a
big wheel, which is mounted on the end of a tilt arm, I'd say that 3
gess for half an hour is not that big a deal. After all, the spin that
up until it feels like you are lying on your back, then they start
tilting the wheel until it is vertical. For safety, they have you
experiencing about 1.5 gee "up" when you are at the top of the wheel.
That requires a spin that gives 2.5 gees "out" (2.5 out - 1  from
gravity equals 1.5). That gives you 3.5 at the bottom. It *ain't* that
much of a strain.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 02:31:08 PST
Subject: Re: Fighters and acceleration

In mail you write:

>      Remember that a Traveller space combat turn is of the order of half an 
>      hour.  Pulling 10G for this length of time would be quite a strain (to 
>      put it mildly) using present technology.  Of course, with 6G 
>      compensation...

I've been keeping that in mind.

>      Does anyone have any accurate data on the number of G's a pilot (i.e. 
>      selected & trained for high-g ops) in reclined seat wearing a g-suit, 
>      etc. can maintain for a couple of hours at a time without penalty (and 
>      also the max g's that a pilot can still just keep conscious)?

Look for NASA data on astronaut training and selection. But I'll go on
record as saying that anybody in decent condition should be able to
take 3gs reclining for a *long* time.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: Tom Ellis <tellis@telerama.lm.com>
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 09:06:59 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: re: jump drives

Jumps are not accelleration, one does not "slow down" from them.  They
just end, not that reentering realspace is not spectacular, but it is not
slowing down from thousands of times the speed of light.

_______________________________________________________
Tom Ellis
tellis@telerama.lm.com
http://www.lm.com/~tellis/

"No! Do, or do not.  There is not try." Yoda
_______________________________________________________ 


------------------------------

From: Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com>
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 96 09:16:06 -0400
Subject: Re: Psionic auto-mindprobe? (Td V96#280)

Tom Ellis wrote:
>Derek commented the a poor ref would simply disallow this, and I 
>diagree. In my campaign telepathy has no effect on the telepath for a 
>reason.  They do not read their own "frequency", to be brief.

IMHO this is reasonable - I was primarily commenting on the first few
responses I saw which basically said "no" without even considering the plot
potential of the idea.

It's also worthwhile to note that the particular person in question had both
Telepathy and Awareness.  I'd suggest that (since awareness is a psi
discipline that specifically affects the user's self) this combination would be
sufficient to do a self-mindprobe.

>Self probe would be a "Special" talent in my Imperium.

A long time ago, I made a large list of "special" talents (with the help of
an old out-of-print RPG from FGU called _PSI World_).  That wasn't on the
list, but it's not a bad idea.

derek stanley <dstanley@direct.ca> wrote:
> I hope you're refering to the other Derek, Derek Wildstar that is.  By 
> the way nice spelling of your name there Derek, pretty classy name.

Thanks!  ;-)

> I think the largest problem would be figuring out how to break the connection
> once initiated, it's kind of a loop that you might never find an end to.

This is a good point - and one that I glossed over earlier.  Perhaps the
character makes the connection, finds what they were looking for, and then
can't figure out how to get back.

The other PCs, meanwhile, begin to become concerned about their friend.
Perhaps they need to find a Psi Institute (the same one that trained their
friend?), convince them of their bona-fides, and get assistance that way.

Perhaps an expedition into Zhodani territory to find the appropriate healer
there.  Or perhaps one of the PCs can figure something else out - a strong
enough external stimulus might do it - but what could be strong enough that
wouldn't risk serious injury to the comatose character?  Maybe the party's
doctor can find a Psi-supressant drug that will break the connection.

All things to consider - and any one of them is enough to drive the whole
next play session.  Then there's the ramifications of what the character
learned by examining the back of her own skull - hopefully enough plot
material to fill up several more sessions.


The important thing to remember is that we're telling a story with the
campaign - and everything that the players do (or try to do) should be
considered in relation to the story.
- - Does it further the story in some way?
- - Does it help develop the characters?
- - Does it provide a new plot direction for the story?
- - Does it help tie up old unanswered questions from previous stories?
- - Is it interesting and fun for the group?
Obviously, a degree of internal consistency is needed in order to maintain
the "suspension of disbelief" that's important to keeping the players (and
referee) interested in the story.  Beyond that, consider everything that
_hasn't_ been said or played out to be fluid.  It's OK to change plans based
on what the players have done, or will do.

Star Wars is a great example: in the first movie, we've got no clues that
Vader is Luke's and Leia's father (and no idea that Luke and Leia are
brother and sister).  While I don't know when Lucas decided this, in a RPG
it's certainly reasonable to add this detail in mid-game: it doesn't change
anything that's gone before, and it provides a nice twist to the storyline,
and drives several important elements of the plot in later movies.

I heartily recommend "fluid" plotting for Traveller referees.  Keep notes
about what's happend and what you're planning, but review and revise them
between sessions.  Don't let yourself be trapped into what you'd planned
and decided weeks ago - long as it doesn't contradict the facts (but you
can contradict unsupported assumptions). 

An example: The players jumped from Ruie to Regina a few weeks ago, and (for
some reason) they took a suspicious interest in a slightly-shabby but
otherwise undistinguished passenger (perhaps it was because he paid his fare
in cash - actual Imperial money - not electronic credit).  He said his name
was Howie, and that he was a salesman for a firm on Regina. 

Perhaps at the time you'd been thinking that he was a (more than slightly
shady) independent arms broker afilliated with Instellarms, returning to
Regina with the profits from his latest scam.  But when the players
dropped him off in Regina without getting arrested themselves, they
promptly forgot about him and didn't bother to do a background check.  Now
you can turn him into Howard Mews, eccentric multi-billionare (and he just
so happens to be the patron the PCs are about to meet).

wildstar@qrc.com
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                     "I write because I am personally amused by what I do, and
                      if other people are amused by it, then it's fine.  If
                      they're not, then that's also fine."     --- Frank Zappa


------------------------------

From: Mark Clark <markc@udel.edu>
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 09:26:26 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Tacoma Bridge

> Hi there

> In reference to the Tacoma bridge, not only did it happen in
> relatively recent times, I read/saw somewhere that engineers have only
> understood what was wrong with the design to cause it to collapse.

> Stewart Eyres <spe@astro.keele.ac.uk>

  I assume you left out the word "recently" in the above post.  Actually, 
engineers understood the problem almost immediatly.  The failure was due 
to wind loading, which set up oscillations in the bridge deck.  
Then-current design theory had assumed that such oscillations would be 
negligable, allowing the bridge deck to be built without stiffening.  
This lighter construction meant that long-span suspension bridges could 
be built considerably more cheaply.  Within months of the Tacoma failure, 
other bridges were being re-designed to stiffen the deck, and older 
bridges were reinforced as design formulae were changed.

  I recently read a book on the history of bridge design by the historian 
of technology Henry Petroski.  He cited a study done the in the 1970s, 
that found that major bridge failures occur in thirty year cycles.  The 
explanation?  Turns out that each generation of engineers tends to 
forget the mistakes of the previous generation, and push designs too far, 
resulting in a major failure.  This has some interesting potential for 
roleplaying scenarios, I think.

------------------------------

From: derek stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 06:36:44 -0700
Subject: Re: Surface Area and FF&S

Wes Payne wrote:

>Why a sphere?  It has the lowest surface area/volume ratio.  According 
>to FF&S, our usable surface area is 274,000 square meters.  Actually, on
>checking back, I find that configuration does not affect usable surface
>area, so what I've just done is select the most surface area-efficient
>design.  Silly me.

Actaully I made this mistake too and Dave Golden corrected me.  Hull form 
does effect surface area.

"SURFACE AREA:  Surface area in square meters is the hull material volume 
(after hull form and airframe modifications, but without adjustments for 
hull thickness) multiplied by 100.

						FF&S pg:11

Derek Stanley

------------------------------

From: derek stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 06:44:14 -0700
Subject: Re: comments and a scenario (was Re: Urban legends)

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> 
> The players are trying to survey a planet that got depopulated during
> the Long Night. They find a map hidden in the ruins of a government
> office (say hidden behind a false panel in a file cabinet). It's in bad
> shape, but they can still read it. It's a map of one of the more remote
> areas of the planet, a definite wilderness area. But there are some
> cryptic markings on it, indicating that *somethhing* is there, but the
> markings don't say what it is. But it's ovbvious, both from the way the
> map was hidden, and the fact that the notes are *so* cryptic, that
> whatever it is, it was supposed to be *very* secret.

[snipity snipity snip] 

> I expect that typical players will either contaminate the hell out of
> themselves, or manage to set set off some of the explosive/flammable
> stuff leaking out of corroding drums.  :-)
> 
> In case you haven't guessed, I am fond of setting up situations where
> the players get into trouble because of theor pre-conceived notions.

This is an absolutely evil scenario.  There's a streak of wicked genius 
hidding in this puppy.

>8->

Derek Stanley

------------------------------

From: solsec@southern.co.nz (Andrew Vallance)
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 1996 02:05:02 +1200
Subject: Re: Psionic auto-mindprobe?

On: Mon, 22 Jul 1996 11:50:28 -0500 (CDT)
 "Peter  H. Brenton" <pete@cummings.uchicago.edu> doth wroted

>I think that a human psionic attempting self probing would encounter
>exactly what she expected to see, literally.  If something is hidden from
>her "normally" by her subconcious mind, using an ability of the same mind
>would not remove the block.

>I would think of it as trying to lift yourself by your own bootstraps.
>You just can't find anyplace to stand :)  Or perhaps like using a mirror
>to see the back of your head.  It's still the same head, just from another
>perspective.

>Now, certain circumstances might change this, could a multiple personality
>schizophrenic perceive one of (or the) other personalities? (this has
>interesting implications...)

ARGHHHHH!!!!!!!!
Multiple personality (or dissociative identity, to give the condition its proper
name) and schizophrenia *are not* the same thing, they ain't even close.
Schizophrenics don't have alternate personalities. Since schizophrenia is
organic in origin, mindprobing a schizophrenic is likely to be much like
mindprobing an alien. The brain is biochemically different.

Now, mindprobing a multiple personality (MP) is different. The alternate
personality states of MP are the product of dissociation (its like
daydreaming taken to the Nth degree) and exist in the concious mind,
not the subconcious mind. This is why MPs can learn to be aware of
their different personality states. Therefore probing a MP is most likely
to get you in contact with the personality state currently "active". If you
did manage to contact one of the "dormant" states, you would have
in effect triggered what's called a "switch", i.e. replacing the current
active state with another (causing great distress and confusion to the
MP if they're not aware of the conditions existance).

Now this is interesting. If the person is doing a selfprobe (I'd make this
a special talent myself) and is a MP and unaware of that fact. They could
trigger a switch. This would undoubtedly be extremely traumatic. I'd plunk
for collapse into unconciousness with hysterical amnesia after, quite
possibly with the creation of a new personality state as an additional
result. However I'd also say given the massive complexity of multiple
personality disorder it would not make a suitable roleplay character.


  Andrew etc.
    solsec@southern.co.nz

****************************************************************************
This is air traffic contol
All our operators are busy at the moment
So please land your plane after the tone
Beeeeeeeeepp.
****************************************************************************


------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 08:02:51 -0800
Subject: Re: Tacoma Bridge

On 23 Jul 96 at 9:26, Mark Clark spewed:

>   I assume you left out the word "recently" in the above post.  Actually, 
> engineers understood the problem almost immediatly.  The failure was due 
> to wind loading, which set up oscillations in the bridge deck.  
> Then-current design theory had assumed that such oscillations would be 
> negligable, allowing the bridge deck to be built without stiffening.  
> This lighter construction meant that long-span suspension bridges could 
> be built considerably more cheaply.  Within months of the Tacoma failure, 
> other bridges were being re-designed to stiffen the deck, and older 
> bridges were reinforced as design formulae were changed.
> 
>   I recently read a book on the history of bridge design by the historian 
> of technology Henry Petroski.  He cited a study done the in the 1970s, 
> that found that major bridge failures occur in thirty year cycles.  The 
> explanation?  Turns out that each generation of engineers tends to 
> forget the mistakes of the previous generation, and push designs too far, 
> resulting in a major failure.  This has some interesting potential for 
> roleplaying scenarios, I think.

This is some great stuff...

Actually, I can see this in the ship design for a PC starship.  They 
have experimental TL16 technology in some places...but those systems 
are subject to a lot greater risk of breakdown...the result of 
working with experimental technology...

Lots of opportunity to drive PC's crazy...which is generally a good 
thing...  :-)

Stu




> 
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: David Jaques-Watson <davidjw@pcug.org.au>
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 1996 01:05:15 +1000 (EST)
Subject: Re: Fighters, J-drives

Dear Folks -

1a.	MISPRONOUNCED NAMES

Try these (pronounciation at end):

	Myfanwe (Welsh)
	Cholmondely (English)
or even:
	Jaques (English, actually Cornish, we think)

2.	RESTRICTED J-DRIVE SALES

Now, here is an interesting topic. Does the Imperium restrict jump drives?

Some discussion points:

- - There is virtally no need to restrict drives. High-jump also means 
high-volume; these drives are unprofitable for the average trader.

- - Free traders only need j-1 IF ON A MAIN. If in a j-2 cluster, a far
trader is essential, or worse a deep trader (j-3) may be required. Al
Morai use j-4. Only the Fleet Courier seems to be j-6.  [ASIDE: Al Morai
uses large j-4 traders. Presumably, by following the xboat communications
routes, you can tell your PC's that Al Morai finds it easier to send info
ahead, allowing their factors longer lead times to buy spec cargo.]

- - Thanks, Stewart, I had forgotten the Tukera reference to private j-6 
couriers. Caradoc LIC (based at Tavonni) uses a network of j-6 Fleet 
Couriers (SEE _Fighting Ships_) to ferry high-powered business execs to 
Tavonni for high-level, face-to-face conferences... for a premium, of course.

- - The old Games Workshop _IISS Ship Files_ (UK 1981) includes the 
Excalibur-class Express Packet Boat (Bilstein Yards, Glisten), a j-4 
courier. Note that the reference to "we need to know where this bird's 
engines are from" refers to a pair of streamlined j-2 engines (not j-6), 
now attached to an unstreamlined tramp freighter. BTW, the idea that 
"power plants act as psi shields" - what I though was a TNE idea - is 
mentioned in this book, w/specific reference to the Zho Tiaflfiet-class 
Patrol Frigate.

What do you think? Do you feel that high-jump drives would be restricted 
by the Imperium?

3.	FIGHTERS

Pretty simple reason for the 6G limit: "before FF&S, HG was". And HG only 
had thruster plates. And the max acceleration from thruster plates is 6G. 
*Correction* - Charles has reminded me that the _Starship Operator's 
Manual_ allows engineers to overpower their drives by a percentage. Just 
the sort of thing that a space-based Chuck Yeager might try.

And the "6G acceleration vs 6G acceleration" thing (uncatchable ships) is 
why I modified Marc's _Missiles_ Special Supplement to create 10G 
missiles as "standard missiles", with Navy missiles being 21G. This way, 
you could virtually ignore _Mayday_'s past:present:future markers for 
missiles and just play using HG combat rules (missiles fire and hit in 
the same turn).

Les said:

>Ever notice that most ship deck plans have down facing lateral to the 
line of acceleration...

Except the big ships, such as the good old AHL's.

4.	FLAIR

>Even game-geeks need FLAIR every-damn-once-in-a-while....

Which is why the "Traveller Technical Architecture" became "Fire, Fusion 
and Steel" - now that is a way cool name.

BTW, I looked at the Tavonni RICE Paper and discovered I omitted a 
"historical" reference:

"It is not as though the Star Vikings invented anything new. They simply 
refined old techniques under the direction of their Hiver puppet masters. 
Tavonni, for example, was a bootstrap operation long before the 
Reformation Coalition knew what the term meant.
Jeffery Zirzuika, _A Staple Diet: The Collected RICE Papers_ (U of R 
Publishing, 1140)".

1b.	PRONOUNCIATIONS

	Myfanwe: miv-an-we, or really mv-an-we (say the first 3 letters 
as one sound!)
	Cholmondely: chum-lee ("so chumpy, you can carve it")
	Jaques: jakes (notice, no "C" ;-)

- - Hyphen
(David Jaques-Watson)
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity".


------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #282
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